Slowplay penalties

[SL8RADE]

If clock of player A is 15 minutes above Clock of player B at any point in the match, there should be a penalty for slow play. Or possibly there should be consideration for a retooling of the clock system.

 

[ChaoticReaper]

Clock is a resource. Both players get 25 minutes and are free to use it as they wish

 

[AEMNIAMFLAREL]

99% of the time these players are playing 2 or more matches...

I'd be better to disable multiple matches... I'm not sure how the mtgo team feels about this subject.

This has always been annoying to me. However players play less matches if they can't play multiple matches at the same time overall.

In my opinion multi-queuing should be eliminated because it's impossible to do in paper magic sanctioned match.

 

[Bryan]

99% of the time these players are playing 2 or more matches...

I'd be better to disable multiple matches... I'm not sure how the mtgo team feels about this subject.

This has always been annoying to me. However players play less matches if they can't play multiple matches at the same time overall.

In my opinion multi-queuing should be eliminated because it's impossible to do in paper magic sanctioned match.

That 99% figure is bogus. There are a lot of people that are staring at their phone, or at the TV, or just have room temp IQs.

I play 3 multiplayer games at once and still play faster than most.

It doesn't matter what's possible in paper, this is digital.

 

[GwennieMacrae]

Whether they're playing another game or not, I am 10000% in agreement that something should be done about players who are like consistently drastically behind you on the timer.

I get we all have times where we started a game and forgot and maybe we walked away and came back to see that we timed out on a game. While its not something I've done often, sure...I've made that mistake too.

But I'd be totally supportive if like after one time out, that if a player is constantly 5+ minutes slow on the timer, constantly stalling out on games and times out more than once in a few hours that that they're maybe just blocked from starting/joining games for an hour or something.

I most definitely had TONS of times where an opponent very clearly just timed out because they were upset rather than conceding and I'd LOVE to see some reasonable penalty set for this. Heck, I've had times where the opponent has openly admitted in text that they're timing out in anger and it would be great to see them penalized for this sort of behaviour.

 

[AEMNIAMFLAREL]

That 99% figure is bogus. There are a lot of people that are staring at their phone, or at the TV, or just have room temp IQs.

I play 3 multiplayer games at once and still play faster than most.

It doesn't matter what's possible in paper, this is digital.

Sure but the claim isn't bogus, multi-queing has been going on since the dawn of mtgo (the original software) ... I'm willing to bet the number of slow players drops by 50% at least.

The MTGO online team could pull these stats and determine if multi-queing creates slow play then take action accordingly, sure you'll still have people checking their phones still but any improvement is a good improvement on this topic.

Just becasuse your fast doesn't everyone else is at multiqueing.

I used to get so mad at this i would go check other tourneys and sure enough the person I'm playing was in some other format playing as well.
Not sure if you can do this anymore, this was on the old interface.

 

[Eol]

Going to have to agree with the OP in that something needs to be done though it needs to be multifaceted and contextualized, i.e. to ChaoticRepears point, time is a resources but really only in paid played, in non-paid it's not in practice hence any discussed fix really needs to acknowledge paid play is different that non-paid play even online.

A challenge with an absolute timer which is why I dislike what the OP suggested is some decks just take a long time to click, i.e. you can be progressing the game and clicking at a reasonable pace playing something like storm and fall behind simply because of all the clicks it takes, likewise some players make you play out (rightly so IMO) your infinite combo until you die especially in paid play as it eats clock and punishes you for playing that sort of deck though that isn't to say it's just a combo issue, bant control as do various other control decks has the same problem, i.e. learn to play your deck in a quick efficient manner or lose to time. I have no problem with that as a concept.

What I'd like to see more is where it also checks against "is the person taking client actions" (i.e. advancing the game state in offline terms) and make that much more aggressive, something like "if you opponent in absolute terms is more than five minutes behind AND hasn't clicked in thirty seconds, auto concede them the second warning". You can even introduce a button, like other games do, that says "thinking" so it would display that to chat AND force you to click/interact (so your opponent knows you are actively there) while still give you time to think as you can just keep hitting it every 30 seconds if needed.

I get we all have times where we started a game and forgot and maybe we walked away and came back to see that we timed out on a game

Nope, just you hence your other threat about the routine "harassment" you get online that nobody else suffers from. The rest of us start games and paying attention for them to start rather go do something else / alt+tab to Bryan's point.

Programmatically def would love them to fix multiqueuing including IP limits to avoid multiple handles doing the same thing but I understand they won't because grinders and streamers drive revenue and they both make heavy use of this. I think the better fix here which goes along with the spirit of this thread which can also make people Bryan happy is you individually get a more aggressive time out timer per additional game you are in or connection from your IP address, i.e. if you can multitask 4 games fine, great. Each connection/game though you are going to get more aggressive timers TO ENSURE THAT after all, you said you can. Maybe (to my above thing) default 30 second click timers, -5 seconds per additional connection/queue you are in. 5 min clock diff, -30 seconds per additional connection/queue you are in, etc.

Gwennie Macrae:
I've had times where the opponent has openly admitted in text that they're timing out in anger and it would be great to see them penalized for this sort of behaviour.

It is, you can report them and if they get enough and they aren't justified, they get banned, it actually does happen too. Also don't confuse anger with righteousness. Could be you are 22 minutes behind on clock and are intentionally slow playing your win so you win with "10 seconds left" just because you like to waste others people times winning hence the girl who is "angry" might be like "You just wasted 22 minutes of my time intentionally slow playing and not winning so I'll now I'll catch up on that time and waste 22 minutes of your waiting for that 1 second to progress". I see it all the time especially with combo players who will literally infinite their second win until they hit a second just to "rub their win in"; you beat those guys by simply sitting a kitchen timer for 3:59 once you notice them doing it and you can catch them between those 2 or 3 seconds so they time out and lose. Likewise Bant players who take 1:30 each click every click every phase until they are red on time and then magically can click through in 10 seconds. That shows they aren't stupid nor a PC issues as they wouldn't be able to speed up then, it just shows they are intentionally slow playing hence they get caught in tit for tat .. something you've made it clear you hate lol. The other player reacting to your poor sportsmanship.

 

[GwennieMacrae]

Going to have to agree with the OP in that something needs to be done though it needs to be multifaceted and contextualized, i.e. to ChaoticRepears point, time is a resources but really only in paid played, in non-paid it's not in practice hence any discussed fix really needs to acknowledge paid play is different that non-paid play even online.

A challenge with an absolute timer which is why I dislike what the OP suggested is some decks just take a long time to click, i.e. you can be progressing the game and clicking at a reasonable pace playing something like storm and fall behind simply because of all the clicks it takes, likewise some players make you play out (rightly so IMO) your infinite combo until you die especially in paid play as it eats clock and punishes you for playing that sort of deck though that isn't to say it's just a combo issue, bant control as do various other control decks has the same problem, i.e. learn to play your deck in a quick efficient manner or lose to time. I have no problem with that as a concept.

What I'd like to see more is where it also checks against "is the person taking client actions" (i.e. advancing the game state in offline terms) and make that much more aggressive, something like "if you opponent in absolute terms is more than five minutes behind AND hasn't clicked in thirty seconds, auto concede them the second warning". You can even introduce a button, like other games do, that says "thinking" so it would display that to chat AND force you to click/interact (so your opponent knows you are actively there) while still give you time to think as you can just keep hitting it every 30 seconds if needed.



Nope, just you hence your other threat about the routine "harassment" you get online that nobody else suffers from. The rest of us start games and paying attention for them to start rather go do something else / alt+tab to Bryan's point.

Programmatically def would love them to fix multiqueuing including IP limits to avoid multiple handles doing the same thing but I understand they won't because grinders and streamers drive revenue and they both make heavy use of this. I think the better fix here which goes along with the spirit of this thread which can also make people Bryan happy is you individually get a more aggressive time out timer per additional game you are in or connection from your IP address, i.e. if you can multitask 4 games fine, great. Each connection/game though you are going to get more aggressive timers TO ENSURE THAT after all, you said you can. Maybe (to my above thing) default 30 second click timers, -5 seconds per additional connection/queue you are in. 5 min clock diff, -30 seconds per additional connection/queue you are in, etc.



It is, you can report them and if they get enough and they aren't justified, they get banned, it actually does happen too. Also don't confuse anger with righteousness. Could be you are 22 minutes behind on clock and are intentionally slow playing your win so you win with "10 seconds left" just because you like to waste others people times winning hence the girl who is "angry" might be like "You just wasted 22 minutes of my time intentionally slow playing and not winning so I'll now I'll catch up on that time and waste 22 minutes of your waiting for that 1 second to progress". I see it all the time especially with combo players who will literally infinite their second win until they hit a second just to "rub their win in"; you beat those guys by simply sitting a kitchen timer for 3:59 once you notice them doing it and you can catch them between those 2 or 3 seconds so they time out and lose.

Firstly, I never said it was a constant issue for me. My point was that I get we all make mistakes or heck maybe your internet died and that people should only get some kinda reasonable response to timing out, like say maybe they cant start/join games for an hour or so if they've done it more than once in a short period of time.

Secondly, you LITERALLY said in another thread that "stalling is a complex issue" and you feel that stalling out and letting the timer run out is a reasonable response to what you deem as "toxic behaviour". "Toxic Behaviour" in this context being, playing a deck you dont like.

In your own words, "As for non-league stalling, well you are free to concede the game. There is absolutely no money on the line hence the win is irrelevant outside your own ego, just right click concede, why sit around and stew making yourself mad .. that's a you problem. At the point someone is stalling you they are communicating you in a way you seem to be to dense to understand that they no longer wish to play with you and are so tired of your continual disrespect that rather than concede themselves as you do when you are in a losing position but feel your opponent respects you, they now value wasting your time more than they value their own time as that is the only avenue they have to try and provide you feedback on your antisocial behavior."

You LITERALLY have said that you feel stalling is warranted and that it's the responsibility of the other player to just concede if they don't like it.

Do you have ANY grasp of reality? Any grasp at all? Like when you speak and use language, do you understand what the words you're saying mean?

 

[GwennieMacrae]

And lol now you edit in a bit where you say that reason someone might stall is because the OTHER person is stalling and that you "see it all the time?" but you also think that the reason someone would stall when it happens to anyone else is because they're being "Righteous" and "communicating they dont appreciate your toxic behaviour". But when it happens to YOU it's because they are "intentionally slow playing their win so they win with "10 seconds left" just because they like to waste others people times".

For real though, like are you doing a bit? Is this a character you're playing RN? If this has all been a joke...right on, that's actually pretty funny, for real. If this is actually how your mind works......yeeeesh....

 

[Eol]

Stalling is warranted in cases, that is completely independent of what we are discussing here which is "how long should people be allowed to stall behind they effectively are giving a game loss for slow play". And yes because stalling is complex sometimes it's warranted, sometimes it's not. The nuance is what you continually miss. It matters if it's paid or non-paid. It matters if they are behind, or ahead. It matters when exactly the stall occurred, etc. You seem to think people only intentionally stall when they are behind and about to lose; people intentionally stall while they are ahead as well and more often than the inverse case. Like I said, stalling is a complex multifaceted issue hence it's not worth the developers time to deal with whereas what they can do, as discussed on this thread, is simply make more aggressive timers to reduce their impact.

And I stand by that, it is the responsibly of the player outside of paid play to concede if they don't like it, people do it all the time myself included, it's not a big deal as stalling is simply a communication mechanism is free play. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't take steps to reduce it programmatically especially in paid play when it's not so much as intentional stalling but multitasking, inattention, etc .. all things in real life you would get a slow play warning then game loss on. Like you ever watched a streamer (most of them) where they will spend spend 3 minutes a round narrating to their audience while disrespecting the opponent sitting across the virtual table from them and you can't really concede because it's a paid game. Try live casting your real life game at a paper tournament while you are playing it and see how far that gets you. That is the behavior we need to fix programmatically, not the motivation behind it. If you aggressively make betters timer, the motive doesn't really matter.

Also disconnection is a BS excuse and people abuse that. I disconnect routinely, takes under 30 seconds, usually less, to get back in the match. Also they really should add network pings to those timers on the backend, i.e. if the player is still pinging then the reconnect timer should be less than if no ping, i.e. one is a reboot, one is a rage quit.

 

[GwennieMacrae]

Stalling is warranted in cases, that is completely independent of what we are discussing here which is "how long should people be allowed to stall behind they effectively are giving a game loss for slow play". And yes because stalling is complex sometimes it's warranted, sometimes it's not. The nuance is what you continually miss. It matters if it's paid or non-paid. It matters if they are behind, or ahead. It matters when exactly the stall occurred, etc. You seem to think people only intentionally stall when they are behind and about to lose; people intentionally stall while they are ahead as well and more often than the inverse case. Like I said, stalling is a complex multifaceted issue hence it's not worth the developers time to deal with whereas what they can do, as discussed on this thread, is simply make more aggressive timers to reduce their impact.

And I stand by that, it is the responsibly of the player outside of paid play to concede if they don't like it, people do it all the time myself included, it's not a big deal as stalling is simply a communication mechanism is free play. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't take steps to reduce it programmatically especially in paid play when it's not so much as intentional stalling but multitasking, inattention, etc .. all things in real life you would get a slow play warning then game loss on. Like you ever watched a streamer (most of them) where they will spend spend 3 minutes a round narrating to their audience while disrespecting the opponent sitting across the virtual table from them and you can't really concede because it's a paid game. Try live casting your real life game at a paper tournament while you are playing it and see how far that gets you. That is the behavior we need to fix programmatically, not the motivation behind it. If you aggressively make betters timer, the motive doesn't really matter.

Also disconnection is a BS excuse and people abuse that. I disconnect routinely, takes under 30 seconds, usually less, to get back in the match. Also they really should add network pings to those timers on the backend, i.e. if the player is still pinging then the reconnect timer should be less than if no ping, i.e. one is a reboot, one is a rage quit.

Have you considered the possibility that it's maybe very much NOT a "complex and multifaceted" issue and that maybe you're just struggling to understand something simple?

What you've literally just said here is that if a person INTENTIONALLY stalls, "it is the responsibly of the player outside of paid play to concede if they don't like it". BUT...not if the opponent intentionally stalling was winning, if they're losing though, it's them "communicating that they dont wish to be disrespected". "Disrespected" meaning, the other player is winning and they're upset about it.

It's NOT the responsibility of the losing player to simply accept the loss, concede and move on.

Why is this specifically such an issue for you? Why are you having such a hard time grasping that things like stalling, name calling and literal threats of violence ARE toxic and childish behaviour but playing a card game and winning is not?

Can you just answer that one question?

 

[AEMNIAMFLAREL]

"Programmatically def would love them to fix multiqueuing including IP limits to avoid multiple handles doing the same thing but I understand they won't because grinders and streamers drive revenue and they both make heavy use of this. I think the better fix here which goes along with the spirit of this thread which can also make people Bryan happy is you individually get a more aggressive time out timer per additional game you are in or connection from your IP address, i.e. if you can multitask 4 games fine, great. Each connection/game though you are going to get more aggressive timers TO ENSURE THAT after all, you said you can. Maybe (to my above thing) default 30 second click timers, -5 seconds per additional connection/queue you are in. 5 min clock diff, -30 seconds per additional connection/queue you are in, etc."

I don't agree with a strict timer for regular people ... There are times you need to tank and think about the outcomes. A reason I hate arena.

It's easier just to block multiple matches from the same account. And would get rid of I'd say half of them.


You have a point with multiple accounts but that could be bypassed by multiple PCs even if tracking IPs'

Now your idea about loosing more clock time when in multiple games is good...
That punishes multi que-ers...
Probably a few ways you could slice or dice this...

 

[Eol]

I don't agree with a strict timer for regular people ... There are times you need to tank and think about the outcomes. A reason I hate arena.

It's a reason why I suggested, as a way to compensate, a "thinking" button which people can hit to give themselves 30 more seconds (and you can keep hitting it). It forces a game / client action, lets you think, and annoys the guy trying to stall as they have to keep doing it. I do agree with you though there needs to be some way to extend it if we make it hyper aggressive as I, like you, don't want to play speed chess and sometimes, especially in paid play, you really do need time to think. It doesn't have to be 30 seconds, there is probably as sweet spot somewhere between 30 and 60 though; it def less than 2/4 minutes though like now. And it's not that strange, plenty of other turned based games have implemented this including some MTGO clones which I assume we can't mention by name in these forums.

Have you considered the possibility that it's maybe very much NOT a "complex and multifaceted" issue and that maybe you're just struggling to understand something simple?

Except it is for reasons I've explained. People are complicated and it's difficult to ascribe motive in many case, i.e. one woman's stall is another woman's needed time to think. One woman's stall is another woman's disconnect because her PC updated and rebooted. One woman's slow play is another woman's physical or mental disability. And sometimes one woman's stall is just her playing magic however she wants, as you stated early on in another thread is ok, as her greatest joy in playing magic is stalling GwennieMacrae who wants to tell her how she's allowed to play magic against her. See motive is hard hence we don't have to address it when we could just programmatically deal with it via more aggressive and interactive timers and mechanisms because it's impossible to get rid of stalling no matter how aggressive you get, the best you can do is minimize it and by avoiding motive you also avoid besmirching people or unfairly banhammering them. I think we all agree on this thread, yourself included, the existing 2/4 min time outs aren't the best nor are time disparities of 5 seconds to 23 minutes and something should be done about that.

What you've literally just said here is that if a person INTENTIONALLY stalls, "it is the responsibly of the player outside of paid play to concede if they don't like it". BUT...not if the opponent intentionally stalling was winning, if they're losing though, it's them "communicating that they dont wish to be disrespected". "Disrespected" meaning, the other player is winning and they're upset about it.

It's NOT the responsibility of the losing player to simply accept the loss, concede and move on.

Not at all and you know it hence your miscontexualizing the quotes. What I've consistently said is it's the responsibility of the offended player, outside of paid play, to concede. Winning and losing are irrelevant in free play, there is literally zero stakes at place hence nothing lost for conceding. Why would you, or anybody, stay in a game that has no penalty for quitting, just making yourself more angry, it baffles the mind. My winning point was simply pointing out you seem to suggest that only people losing stall and that simply isn't the case, "winners", even in paid play, stall routinely for content, ego, etc. Once again, we don't have to ascribe intention to fix this, we can just be more aggressive on our programmatic slow play or not moving the game state forward timers.

Why are you having such a hard time grasping that things like stalling, name calling and literal threats of violence ARE toxic and childish behaviour but playing a card game and winning is not?

Because everything in context dependent. Stalling is appropriate at times as are both threats and actual violence as well as name calling. I mean if someone is angry at you, would rather them call you a name or burn your house down? Most people would prefer the former and it avoids escalation to the latter. Also one mans name calling is another factual matter. You literally could be whatever "name" they called you and that fact bothers you. Nobody likes we called a thief including thiefs even if it's true.

As for winning the "need" to do so, outside of paid play, is extremely toxic and generally a sign of antisocial personality disorder as folk like that can't seem to differentiate between games and sports, "on" and "off" clock, etc. Games are social in nature hence all parties should feel valued in participating in them or else the game dies and everyone loses as they don't come back. Winning/losing is irrelevant to that, it's just a way to force an arbitrary end to an event other than time. You don't seem to be aware games exists, and are highly popular outside the USA, where there is no competition at all and they are simply cooperative in nature. And you appear to be confusing a game with a sport. Paid magic exists for those players who no longer wish to play a game but compete in sport instead; you can fire up a league anytime you want in minutes and impress your peers with your amazing cardboard win ratio anytime you wish. In free play, winning is irrelevant, losing is irrelevant, and it's ludicrous to not just concede, winning or losing, if you are no longer enjoying the match because you feel your opponent has disrespected and devalued you. Something that time and time again you keep implying you do all the time between your opponents constantly "harassing you" (nobody else has this problem) to "sometimes I just walk away from the game and forgot I started it, oh my bad, God forbid I actually pay attention to the game I joined"

 

[GwennieMacrae]

Okay, you're clearly severely mentally ill and it's obvious that this conversation will go nowhere.

I'll just put it out there for anyone who can see this that you literally just said this:

"Stalling is appropriate at times as are both threats and actual violence as well as name calling. I mean if someone is angry at you, would rather them call you a name or burn your house down? Most people would prefer the former and it avoids escalation to the latter."

You quite literally can't comprehend the idea that a rational human being might be able to handle losing at a game of magic without doing ANY of those things and just accepting the loss.

 

[GwennieMacrae]

I also gotta ask. What you think would actually happen in real life if we were playing magic, you didn't like what I played and then proceeded to physically assault me?

Are you going to say to the judge "We were playing Magic: The Gathering your honour. She proceeded to play Divine Intervention and then use Vampire Hexmage to remove both counters and end the game in a draw. I felt disrespected by this play so I proceeded to punch her in the face and kick her teeth in."

Do you think the judge is gonna be like "Oh well, completely understandable! What other option did you have? She was disrespecting you in a card game!"

 

[AEMNIAMFLAREL]

I also gotta ask. What you think would actually happen in real life if we were playing magic, you didn't like what I played and then proceeded to physically assault me?

Are you going to say to the judge "We were playing Magic: The Gathering your honour. She proceeded to play Divine Intervention and then use Vampire Hexmage to remove both counters and end the game in a draw. I felt disrespected by this play so I proceeded to punch her in the face and kick her teeth in."

Do you think the judge is gonna be like "Oh well, completely understandable! What other option did you have? She was disrespecting you in a card game!"

You're out of control... chill.

 

[GwennieMacrae]

You're out of control... chill.

I'm assuming the post above mine was "too long" and you didn't read it?

TBH your posts add nothing to the conversation and "You can choose not to respond to my posts regardless of whether you see them or not."

 

[Eol]

it's obvious that this conversation will go nowhere.

It was never meant to go anywhere, it's not a competition lol, it's just two people discussing something. You know people actually do that as hard as it seems for you to believe.

You quite literally can't comprehend the idea that a rational human being might be able to handle losing at a game of magic without doing ANY of those things and just accepting the loss

Not everyone is rational and sometimes there are rational reasons for such items, not everyone has your socioeconomic lifestyle or comes from your culture; magic is a worldwide game. But I'd bet you all the money in the world if showed up to a tournament and someone stole your cards, called you a name, or had deck are that you'd find offensive, you would resort to violence albeit most likely via third party as to not soil your hands. And once again you are overly focusing on losing when, at least in my experience, I find the majority of people who engage in what you call toxic behavior on MTGO are generally in a winning position.

I also gotta ask. What you think would actually happen in real life if we were playing magic, you didn't like what I played and then proceeded to physically assault me?

And likewise once again you are attempting to muddy the issue with paid play, we have been talking free play here the entire time. In competitive Magic nobody cares what you play because both parties are there to win and hence don't need to be considerate of the other party's feelings on the matter. It's telling you keep shifting goal posts and miscontextualizing in nearly every post as well as attacking everyone, not just me, who has a different opinion than you; I feel you hang out on Reddit a lot lol.

But if you are asking what I would do if you showed up to my LGS and we were doing free play, I'd simply fold my cards and find someone else to play and since you most likely ask why, I would tell you. Though yeah if I felt you were intentionally being disrespectful I'd discuss with others and have you blacklisted if they felt warranted. Antisocial people don't last long at LGS's because well, every one hates them so they get booted. There is no difference between on and off line when it comes to human communication, it's a fiction antisocial people tell themselves to excuse their bad beahvior.

 

[GwennieMacrae]

But I'd bet you all the money in the world if showed up to a tournament and someone stole your cards, called you a name, or had deck are that you'd find offensive, you would resort to violence albeit most likely via third party as to not soil your hands.

No honey, I wouldn't. Again, I'm not an unhinged maniac. I could most definitely say that, no if someone played a deck I found offensive I would NOT resort to violence nor has that thought ever crossed my mind, not once. Nor have I EVER in my life been around anyone who thought like that.

I wouldn't resort to violence if someone called me a name either. l might respond to them verbally, but again, I'm not an animal, I can use my words. If someone stole my cards, and I knew who it was, I'd call the cops or ask the store owner to lock the place up until they were returned.

How is it so hard for you to understand that normal people don't resort to violence over a card game. And YES it is a game hon.

Please explain to me your living situation, explain to me the environment that you're in where people believe that physical assault is a rational response to someone playing a magic deck they dont like. I would actually be interested in understanding this, I'm all ears.