Why are employees and sponsored customers allowed to compete in competitive league play?

[-Thundercracker-]

First, I would like to point out that this is nothing personal against any of the people that I am going to mention. But I believe that the things that are being allowed by Daybreak Games here is incredibly unfair to actual paying customers.

I was paired against an employee that I will not name publicly here, but the event is #279306626. At least, I am going to assume it was an employee due to the DB_ at the beginning of the player's name. I believe that this is extremely unfair for a number of reasons. First, employees have access to the entire catalog of cards available on MTGO at no charge, while regular customers have to spend significant amounts of money to be able to compete against them on an even playing field. I do not know if employees have to actually pay to compete in these events, but I would assume that the answer is no. Again, this just means that customers are putting up their own money to play in leagues and challenges while employees are, as the saying goes, playing with house money. Another concern of mine is the diagnostic tools that employees would have available to them. In the early days of online gaming, several poker sites such as Ultimate Bet were found to have employees using diagnostic tools to be able to see what their opponents are playing, and allowing employees to play competitively opens the possibility that an employee could do the same thing here. Note that I am in no way accusing the employee or anyone else of wrongdoing. I am merely saying that allowing employees to compete opens the door to this possibility, and it has happened in other companies before. Customers have no way of knowing whether or not this is happening on the other end, other than just having to take DB's word for it.

If this wasn't an employee account, I assume it was an alternate account of a player that you are sponsoring for whatever reason. This leads me to my next concern. Today, I watched a video from a player who creates Youtube content under the name "IAmActuallyLvl1". While watching This video, he was asked why he was using an alternate account (DB_Lvl1), and he mentioned that Vivi Ornitier is currently "Worth 50 tickets" and he didn't feel like buying it. I do not have a problem with content creators getting free product from DB, but they absolutely should not be allowed to use that product in competitive games. Why are they being given a competitive advantage by getting free product that other customers have to spend significant amounts of money to get? This is *significantly* unfair to customers who are paying to play in these events. Why are they allowed to compete in events for free that regular customers have to pay to enter? They already have a significant competitive edge against regualr players (They draft and play leagues with a full chat room of friends and watchers advising them on their plays, while regular players typically have no such advisors, for example). They don't need DB putting their thumbs on the scale by giving them even more of a competitive advantage via free product. Between the winnings they get from their natural skill and the money they make off of Youtube, there's no reason they can't pay for their product like everybody else.

Whether the first account in question is an employee or a sponsored player, the end result is the same: There are people playing in paid, competitive events in Magic Online that are given a signficant competitive advantage by Daybreak Games in the form of free product and free entry into events (And if they're employees, possible diagnostic tools that could further their advantage), and this is incredibly unfair to those who are looking for a competitive and fair game, and it just leads to customers questioning if, and if so where else, DB is putting their thumb on the scale. If you want to give them product for use in non-competitive environments for content creation, I don't have a problem with that. But if they're going to enter sanctioned play, they should at least have to pay just like everybody else.

 

[Bryan]

It really is quite unfair to just give certain people all the cards free of charge and then even worse to allow them to compete for prizes. But ultimately it's just another aspect of life that is unfair, of which there are many.

 

[-Thundercracker-]

Some people just being better than others at the game is an unfair fact of life. Some people having more money than others is an unfair fact of life. Things like that we can't control, as those with more resources or skill have every right to play the same game we are.

This isn't that, though. This is an active decision by Daybreak Games to give either sponsored players and/or employees an unfair advantage over their own paying customers, and I believe they should have to answer for why this is allowed. The policy exists. The streamer admitted as much, so it's not a secret. If they're going to have a policy like this, then they can answer why to the customers it's affecting. If players are going to have to pay real money to enter competitive events, they have the right to know that the scales are tipped against them.

 

[ManaDrainThis]

Regarding the first part of this post, I think Daybreak overall does a great job of managing the game, and I haven’t seen any credible evidence that any of their employees or sponsored players are using diagnostic tools to gain an unfair advantage in competitive play. I very highly doubt this is happening.

As for the second part — sponsored players getting God accounts — I think this is a very reasonable criticism worthy of discussion & reflection among the MTGO community.

 

[-Thundercracker-]

Regarding the first part of this post, I think Daybreak overall does a great job of managing the game, and I haven’t seen any credible evidence that any of their employees or sponsored players are using diagnostic tools to gain an unfair advantage in competitive play. I very highly doubt this is happening.

As for the second part — sponsored players getting God accounts — I think this is a very reasonable criticism worthy of discussion & reflection among the MTGO community.

For the record, I also have absolutely no evidence that any DB employee has actually used diagnostic tools to gain an unfair advantage. But allowing employees to enter events with god accounts at no charge is in and of itself a significant advantage that should be avoided, even if only to avoid the *appearance* of impropriety. Even if DB themselves have strict protocols around employees entering events, all it takes is for one employee to go rogue to ruin the reputation of the entire company and the trust in the entire system to immediately evaporate. And as I said, it's not like an employee using diagnostic tools in this way doesn't have a precedent, as it led to the downfall of multiple poker sites during the online poker boom. Allowing employees to play in these events, especially when not making it clear to other players that they may be playing against an employee, gives the entire program that whiff of impropriety that causes people to question what else is going on behind the scenes that they may not know about.

My biggest problem with it is that it still gives their employees a significant and unfair advantage against regular customers who may not be aware that they could be playing against employees with god accounts playing with house money, even if the employees themselves are otherwise on the up-and-up, and I'm not entirely fond of the idea of basically having to just take their word for it that everything is on the level.

I do not believe, however, there is any valid reason why content creators are being given God accounts to essentially pubstomp with.

 

[ManaDrainThis]

A few quick points in response:

1) I think you’re overstating the risk here, and don’t agree that DB employees/creators are gaining any sort of unfair advantage.

2) You say “especially when not making it clear to other players that they may be playing against an employee.” But Daybreak does, in fact, make this clear, through the use of “DB_” usernames. There is quite a bit of transparency there.

3) My understanding is that all employees & creators are still paying entry fees like everyone else.

4) So in my mind, the ONLY issue raised that merits discussion is that they’re getting God accts, but those God accts arent in any way threatening the competitive integrity of matches or events. It’s just a handout to creators to thank them for making all that content using the program. And that might be an entirely appropriate & reasonable thing to do, as content creators work hard to promote MTGO to the public through a variety of social media platforms.

You raise good points overall, I just don’t think this is as big of an issue as you think it is.

 

[ManaDrainThis]

Also, those while those God accts have access to most cards on Mtgo, they may be restricted from accumulating value through opening treasure chests or buying/selling cards. They may even be prevented from trading altogether. If that is the case, they’re significantly less worrysome.

 

[-Thundercracker-]

A few quick points in response:

1) I think you’re overstating the risk here, and don’t agree that DB employees/creators are gaining any sort of unfair advantage.

Allowing employees to play, especially under the circumstances that DB allows, brings the risk from zero to nonzero. Again, all it takes is one rogue employee to bring down trust in the entire system and the reputation of the company.

Also, policies are put in place preemptively specifically to avoid even the *appearance* of impropriety, which is just as important as stopping the improper behavior itself. Players need to trust that bad things aren't going to happen in the first place, not just that DB will do something later if it does. Lax policies and an attitude that "it will never happen", especially when there is precedent in the industry for that very thing happening, is exactly what leads to rogue employees thinking they'll never be caught or that it's no big deal and that it's worth the risk to engage in that behavior in the first place.

2) You say “especially when not making it clear to other players that they may be playing against an employee.” But Daybreak does, in fact, make this clear, through the use of “DB_” usernames. There is quite a bit of transparency there.

This should be made clear *before* people enter events, not afterwards. If they're going to allow employees with god accounts to enter events, players should be actively warned with a pop-up that an employee with a god account has entered the event so that the customer can make an informed decision *before* handing over their money.

3) My understanding is that all employees & creators are still paying entry fees like everyone else.

Clarification on this would be ideal. But I'm going to guess that an employee with a god account probably also either has unlimited tickets/play points or the ability to generate them at will.

4) So in my mind, the ONLY issue raised that merits discussion is that they’re getting God accts, but those God accts arent in any way threatening the competitive integrity of matches or events.

The competitive integrity of the matches is compromised the minute you say "You can join this event for free because you are a content creator, so here's a God account.", then tell a potential opponent that they can only compete on a level playing field if they shovel over hundreds of dollars for the exact same stuff. That's exactly what is happening.

It’s just a handout to creators to thank them for making all that content using the program. And that might be an entirely appropriate & reasonable thing to do, as content creators work hard to promote MTGO to the public through a variety of social media platforms.

I completely agree with this, in principle. Let them use it for all the non-competitive events they want. They can create all the content and play with their friends and in invitational events specifically centered around them. But they should not be allowed to use that content in competitive events where they can profit off of gaining a competitive edge with the blessing of DB, especially at the expense of customers that don't know they're playing against God accounts.

You raise good points overall, I just don’t think this is as big of an issue as you think it is.

I enjoy having these discussions and like getting muliple perspectives. I'm also a strong believer in solving problems before they become problems in the first place, not reacting to problems later that could have been avoided.

The best way to make sure it stays that way is to discuss and resolve the issues *now*, before they become issues in the first place. The best way to make sure an employee doesn't go rogue and start using their tools to gain a competitive edge is to put policies in place *now* to prevent that. An ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure and all that.

And in a game as expensive as this game is, some players having and being able to use God accounts with the unseen blessing of DB being allowed to compete against players who would have to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars a year just to be able to keep up competitively is a pretty big deal, in my opinion, and allowing employees to play against paying customers (again with the competitive advantage they have and the silent blessing of DB) raises the chances of an employee going rogue from zero to nonzero. Again, IMO, a pretty big deal when all it takes is one single employee to ruin the reputation of the entire company and trust in the system. It's why most other places have rules explicitly preventing this activity in the first place.

Also, those while those God accts have access to most cards on Mtgo, they may be restricted from accumulating value through opening treasure chests or buying/selling cards. They may even be prevented from trading altogether. If that is the case, they’re significantly less worrysome.

This doesn't change the fact that they are still playing against paying customers while they're pressing their thumb firmly on the scale. As a paying customer, I'm still forking over my $X to play in an event where I'm going against someone with literally unlimited resources and nothing to lose. I have to spend hundreds of dollars on cards to build what I feel is the optimal deck. They do not. If and when I lose, I'm out $X in tournament fees. They're out nothing. They can just shrug and jump into the next event, worry free. I cannot, without forking over more cash.

 

[ManaDrainThis]

These will be my final thoughts on the matter. I think you raise good points in general, but also don’t think they rise to the level where anyone should be concerned. We can agree to disagree on this.

1) It should be no surprise that game company employees like to play the game they work on professionally. This is normal and natural.

2) There is no evidence that DB employees have ever abused their roles as employees to take advantage of casuals, and in fact, there may be robust systems in place already to prevent that for all we know.

3) If employees & creators are unable to trade on their God accts, then they are unable to “profit” off them, as you suggest.

4) I do not believe that having access to the full suite of cards that others can purchase undermines game integrity in any way.

5) Content creators enter competitive events because they are (presumably) highly skilled and that’s the content that their audience is interested in consuming. The fact that such creators usually use their non-DB acct implies to me that the DB “God” accts are limited from trading, which disincentivizes those players from wanting to grind events using those accts, because they would be unable to monetize prizes. (i.e. if prizes can’t be traded away they are worthless)

 

[-Thundercracker-]

These will be my final thoughts on the matter. I think you raise good points in general, but also don’t think they rise to the level where anyone should be concerned. We can agree to disagree on this.

1) It should be no surprise that game company employees like to play the game they work on professionally. This is normal and natural.

Nobody is questioning this. Seeing employees play *casual games* against regular players is great for community outreach and interaction as a whole. But there's a reason why employees being forbidden from being participants in a competitive environment is the norm. Not only does it prevent the possibility of one employee going rogue and using their god accounts or dev tools to their advantage, but it avoids the *appearance* of impropriety and maintains game integrity.

2) There is no evidence that DB employees have ever abused their roles as employees to take advantage of casuals, and in fact, there may be robust systems in place already to prevent that for all we know.

If those systems are in place, it would be in DB's best interests to let customers know that ahead of time. There is nothing wrong with making sure customers are fully informed before putting their money down. As you said, there is no evidence that any DB employee has ever abused their role. But most places have policies in place preventing employees from participating competitively specifically to make sure it stays that way and, again, to avoid even the *appearance* of impropriety.

3) If employees & creators are unable to trade on their God accts, then they are unable to “profit” off them, as you suggest.

This is correct but it still doesn't make the situation all that much better. Paying customers still shouldn't be forced to go against people who have been specifically given a competitive advantage who are playing for free and have nothing to lose.

This of course also assumes that content creators aren't allowed to earn or trade prizes. Right now, whether content creators and employees can earn and keep prizes off of these God accounts is unknown.

4) I do not believe that having access to the full suite of cards that others can purchase undermines game integrity in any way.

It does. It severely, severely does. They are already getting a competitive advantage because they can use and playtest the cards in real games so they have a better understanding of, for example, which cards are going to impact the format vs. which cards are simply being overhyped without having to shell out all sorts of money to do so. They will be able to gain experience playing with these cards and learning the nuances of how they play out. These are already huge advantages that are side effects of the relationship between content creators and DB that regular players simply do not have. And that's before being allowed to use those cards in sanctioned play.

Allowing players to then enter real events, free of charge, with God accounts puts them up against people who had to spend money to enter the event, and probably spend hundreds of dollars to build an optimal competitive deck just puts the paying customer well behind the content creator right out of the gate. There's also the psychological effect of having had to shell out real money to buy the cards and enter the tournament, only to go against someone who spent nothing and has nothing to lose. You are literally asking players who may either be on a budget or simply unwilling to pay overvalued prices for new cards to play with limited resources against a DB-blessed opponent who has no such limitations or concerns.

If we were on a subscription service where all the cards were available to everybody, your point would be much more valid. But there is no possible way that a regular customer vs. a DB-blessed God account is in any way a level playing field.

5) Content creators enter competitive events because they are (presumably) highly skilled and that’s the content that their audience is interested in consuming. The fact that such creators usually use their non-DB acct implies to me that the DB “God” accts are limited from trading, which disincentivizes those players from wanting to grind events using those accts, because they would be unable to monetize prizes. (i.e. if prizes can’t be traded away they are worthless)

This is mostly a rehash of some of the other points you made above.

I have no problems with the general relationship between DB and the content creators. I watch a lot of it myself. But there are streamers out there who find plenty of ways to stream content that doesn't impact competitive play. LSV's vintage cube drafts, for example, are a particular favorite of mine. And I believe that the overall relationship between DB and the content creators is a huge net positive for the game, even if it does come with the side effects of giving them some competitive advantages in the form of free playtesting. I just draw the line, IMO, at being able to use those accounts in a competitive environment, especially without that fact being made clear to other players.

 

[Torbin]

I want to provide some clarity on this, as I’ve been out and unable to respond until now.

1. DB accounts are not employee accounts — they are content creator accounts.
2. Creators are required to pay to enter events, just like everyone else.
3. They cannot trade or receive any portion of the prize if they win.
4. This system was carefully designed, and we actively monitor all creator accounts for any misuse.
5. These accounts do not grant access to all cards. There are cards that creators do not have and will never have on these accounts.

If a creator abuses their account in any way, they are removed from the program and their account is deactivated. We have strict policies outlining what creators can and cannot do with their accounts to keep the environment as fair as possible.

While I understand you may feel it’s unfair that creators have access to these accounts, the reality is that they are producing content for the community, content that helps market MTGO to current and future players. By allowing them access to AA accounts, we empower them to showcase what MTGO has to offer, all while staying within the framework we've established.

To be clear Daybreak_ is employee accounts. DB_ is creator accounts.

I hope this helps clarify a few things.

 

[-Thundercracker-]

I want to provide some clarity on this, as I’ve been out and unable to respond until now.

1. DB accounts are not employee accounts — they are content creator accounts.

Good to know for future reference. I had originally assumed it was an employee account as many companies use things like their initials so customers can easily differentiate employee accounts from other customers, so I assumed the same held at least partially true here.

1. Creators are required to pay to enter events, just like everyone else.
2. They cannot trade or receive any portion of the prize if they win.

Also good points to know.

1. This system was carefully designed, and we actively monitor all creator accounts for any misuse.
2. These accounts do not grant access to all cards. There are cards that creators do not have and will never have on these accounts.

If a creator abuses their account in any way, they are removed from the program and their account is deactivated. We have strict policies outlining what creators can and cannot do with their accounts to keep the environment as fair as possible.

While I understand you may feel it’s unfair that creators have access to these accounts, the reality is that they are producing content for the community, content that helps market MTGO to current and future players. By allowing them access to AA accounts, we empower them to showcase what MTGO has to offer, all while staying within the framework we've established.

I hope this helps clarify a few things.

I just want to clarify that I have absolutely no issues with content creators having access to these accounts. Full disclosure: Back in the early days of MTGO (the original beta through what I believe was called v4), I was a prolific member of the forums at the time and was one of several people from the forums who also had access to a God account as part of a community relations thing they had going on at the time. We were only allowed to use it during betas and for some sporadic community relations events that were held from time to time.

I am well aware of the benefits that these content creators bring -- I watch several of their channels regularly, and I think the program is a net positive for the game in almost every way. I just do not believe that they should be allowed to play in competitive events against paying customers with these accounts. Even if they do not get to keep the prizes, the fact that they can even enter the event without having to actually buy the cards still gives them an advantage over customers who have to pay, and I do not believe that DB's thumb should be on the scale, even if that is not their explicit intention. You are essentially telling one customer "Hey, you guys can compete in the same tournament, but he has access to all the cards, and you don't." Competitive decks can run into the hundreds of dollars. It's unfair to expect one person to spend hundreds of dollars if they expect to be competitive while saying their opponent doesn't have to spend anything at all.

It's one thing if it's a special event. "Come play against your favorite content creators!" and all that. I have no problems with that. And I have no problems with whatever they do with those accounts in a non-competitive setting. But in regular leagues and events that are open to the general public, I still think allowing content creators to compete in them with their DB-issued accounts is giving them an unfair head start. Many of these content creators produce content across all formats in ways that do not impact paying customers, and I don't think they need to be allowed to use those accounts against paying customers in order to create content when there are plenty of other ways to do so, especially when they openly admit on the stream that they're doing so because they simply don't feel like paying.