Resolved requested vintage cube updates

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vandwedge

Active member
Love the vintage cube, & this last update was a good one. Here's how I think it could be improved even more next season!

1. Weaken white aggro: It's the most powerful archetype, yet it's underdrafted because most people find it unfun. Do we want a cube that incentivizes people to draft an unfun deck?

2. Remove underperforming cards: You have the data, but my hunch is these have little function.
  • Field of the Dead
  • Goblin Bombardment
  • Olivia, Crimson Bride
  • Aurelia, the Warleader
  • Argoth, Sanctum of Nature
  • Titania, Voice of Gaea
  • Bloodghast
  • Cryptbreaker
  • Karmic Guide
  • Mesmeric Fiend
  • Progenitus
  • Soulfire Grandmaster
  • Life from the Loam
  • Land Tax
  • Mirari's Wake
  • Circle of Dreams Druid
  • Dragon Rage Channeler
  • Memory Deluge
  • Witherbloom Command
  • Knight of the Reliquary
  • Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
  • Pack Rat
  • Scrapheap Scrounger
  • Yorion, Sky Nomad
  • Crop Rotation
  • Kodama's Reach
  • Smokestack
  • Academy Ruins
  • Lavaclaw Reaches
  • Raging Ravine
  • Bloodthirsty Adversary
  • Elspeth Resplendent
  • Magus of the Order
  • Satoru Umezawa
  • Eladamri's Call
  • Evolved Sleeper
  • Fiend Artisan
  • Meria, Scholar of Antiquity
3. Add cards that do new things:
  • Titania's Song
  • Ray of Command
  • Isochron Scepter
  • Ritual of the Machine
  • Pox
  • Swerve
  • Desert
  • Pattern of Rebirth
  • Bequeathal
  • Collector Ouphe
  • Debt of Loyalty
  • Zur's Weirding
  • Ritual of Subdual
  • Standstill
  • Hesitation
  • Silent Arbiter
  • Drop of Honey
  • Paradoxical Outcome
  • Arena Rector
  • Academy Rector
  • Humility
  • Helm of Awakening
4. Add cards with raw power:
  • Ashes to Ashes
  • Fire Covenant
  • Suffocating Blast
  • Recoil
  • Exile
  • Fiery Justice
  • Confiscate
  • Copy Artifact
5. Restore previous cuts:
  • Xenagos, the Reveler
  • Primal Command
  • Nimble Obstructionist
  • Kitesail Freebooter
  • Valki, God of Lies
  • Midnight Reaper
  • Rix Maadi Reveler
  • Enlightened Tutor
6. Replace duplicates: Instead of two identical Armageddons, why not make one of them Cataclysm?
 

ManaDrainThis

MTGO Regular
Thanks for creating this post. Hopefully it will attract more attention so we can all share our thoughts on ways to improve the Vintage Cube experience. In my opinion, the cube would benefit from some changes to help strengthen underutilized archetypes, and help enhance & maintain the cube’s power level. Some suggestions below:

1) Hullbreacher! The cube needs this beast. The Draw 7s strategy is slow & largely ineffective rn with the rising power level of aggro decks. Hullbreacher is the best way to resurrect this amazing archetype, and add a lot of dynamism to the cube.

2) Time Vault package! Time Vault was oppressive the last time it was included in the cube (many years ago), simply because Voltaic/Manifold Key was included along with it, and that combo is just too fast and easy to assemble. In my vintage cube, we play Time Vault along with multicolor enablers like Ral Zarek (UR), Scheming Fence (UW), and artifacts like Mirage Mirror & Paradox Engine, which both combo with other cube staples which foster fun interactions & exciting combos. Mirage Mirror is especially nice, because it combos off with Dark Depths, further enhancing the lands deck.

3) White: Add Initiative cards! White Plume Adventurer & Seasoned Dungeoneer are both vintage cube power level cards, and a lot of fun to play. Also, I’m a big fan of Serra Paragon (another Lurrus effect), Danitha Benalia’s Hope, Enlightened Tutor, and efficient new removal spells like Prismatic Ending, March of Otherworldly Light, and Leyline Binding.

4) Green: How has Lotus Cobra not been added back in to the cube? It’s an absolute house in the lands deck, and is always amazing in pretty much any Green deck. Additionally, Worldly Tutor really needs to be added back into the cube, to help out the Sneak/Breach type decks, which seem really weak this time around (probably bc aggro creatures/decks keep getting better). Finally, Dryad of the Ilysian Grove, Tireless Provisioner, Goreclaw Terror of Qal Sisma, and End-Raze Forerunners would all give green decks a big boost.

5) Red: Fiery Confluence and Embercleave! These beasts absolutely need to be in the cube. Fiery Confluence was cut because it was bugged a few years back and mistakenly never added back in. Also, Red needs a good one mana tutor, and thankfully the perfect card already exists - Gamble! Finally, Robber of the Rich, Combat Celebrant, and Light up the Night are no brainer inclusions.

6) Black: Entomb is the most important card for the Reanimator deck, and there’s no other effect like it in the cube. For this reason, Unmarked Grave really needs to be included in the cube, to provide some much needed backup. I also think Dreams of Steel and Oil and Rotting Regisaur should be added as well.

7) Blue: Hullbreacher! By far the most important change. Also, Stasis would be spicy, and Lose Focus is strictly better than Miscalculation (it also let’s you counter Storm cards, which would be a first).

8) Artifacts: Kaldra Compleat! I have no idea why this amazing card was cut last time around. It’s miles ahead of Batterskull, and its inclusion had made Stoneforge Mystic spectacular once again. Please add it back in! It also pairs very well with Danitha Benalia’s Hope, as a really fun combo. Expedition Map also feels like a must include for me, as an assist to the lands deck. And, as mentioned above, Mirage Mirror & Paradox Engine are truly fantastic cards. Lastly, Mystic Forge is a fun one, and pairs very well with Sensei’s Divining Top.

9) Multicolor: Fire Covenant, Lim-Dul’s Vault, Winota Joiner of Forces, Chaos Defiler, Prismari Command, Tear Asunder, Boros Charm, and Kinnan Bonder Prodigy are all extremely powerful & fun options that will enhance & strengthen the cube.

10) Lands: I think one of the most consistent problems for the cube is the lack of reliable fixing, as folks have learned about its importance, and so the lands are drafted much higher these days than in years past. What this does is artificially reward the “boring” but streamlined single color aggro decks, and punish the more adventurous drafters who want to experiment with 4-5 color piles. We should give those drafters a hand! The single biggest improvement to remedy this would be to simply double the fetch lands, by including two copies of every Scalding Tarn, Misty Rainforest, Polluted Delta, etc. Just cut 10 of the weaker lands, and add 10 more fetches, it’s as simple as that!

Final Note: Thanks to Vandwedge for starting this thread, it was a great idea! I agree with almost all of his proposed cuts to the cube (cards that are simply too weak for vintage cube, or which don’t synergize well with the existing archetypes). I disagree only on the following cards, which I think should stay in mtgo’s vintage cube:

A) Life from the Loam & Crop Rotation: The lands deck is great and just needs a little help to be spectacular - i.e. the inclusion of Expedition Map & Mirage Mirror.

B) Mesmeric Fiend & Pack Rat: These staples definitely still perform for me, and Mesmeric Fiend is strictly better than Kitesail Freebooter, because of the trigger stacking combo, where you can permanently exile the card chosen from ur opponent’s hand.

C) Dragon Rage Channeler: Has performed well for me.

I agree with you on all the other cards you listed. They could all be cut & replaced with better alternatives, and no one would bat an eye.
 

Toxic Stench

Well-known member
It would be tragic for the cube if some of this advice was followed. Yes it desperately needs a change, but no adding Time Vault does not improve the environment. An unbeatable two-card combo where each half does nothing alone is not engaging game design. Similarly Hullbreacher is the antithesis of fun. Initiative is one of the worst mechanics introduced to two-player Magic, causing inescapable steamrolls and being generally incomprehensible due to the huge volume of words and choices. The small number of powerful cards with this mechanic would also further imbalance the cube.

I hope that you (Daybreak) reflect on what people request instead of simply doing what they want and letting the squeaky wheel get the grease. Vintage cube is in shambles but don't let the vultures encourage you to accelerate its decay.

I go out of my way to play at least ten of the cards on vandwedge's cut list, and while I agree some of the new ideas in the suggestions list could be fun most of them were already cut or never included in the cube because they would obviously join the first list of ignorable cards immediately. Maybe Drop of Honey could be fun, but most of the cards are situational, weak, and/or reactive and don't compete with the Horizons tribal that dominates Magic right now.
 

ManaDrainThis

MTGO Regular
Hey this is a discussion, there are no vultures here. We all aim to improve the vintage cube play experience, and disagreements are a normal part of that process, as we all derive fun from different aspects of the gameplay.

That said, I disagree with your suggestions. Vintage cube is the only format containing the most powerful and broken cards from all of Magic’s history, and honestly, that’s the exact reason why it’s the most popular and successful format. People want to go on 3-turn Time Walk loops, slam Turn One 5-drops with Black Lotus, and Channel out big Emrakul. Sure, there lots of other fun things going on in vintage cube, but crazy & broken combos will always be part of the fun. Other cubes and formats will deliver a much better midrange experience for players.

None of the cards I proposed adding are “unbeatable two card combos where each half does nothing alone.” Every card in the Time Vault package has unique abilities that are playable with other cards already in the cube. Your comment would be accurate with Voltaic/Manifold Key, but that’s why including them is a bad idea.

Similarly, while Hullbreacher is certainly busted, it’s no more so than Oko, Minsc & Boo, or many of the other crazy cards that we all enjoy playing. And it’s definitely not an instant win, as it still needs to be paired with a Draw 7, and it would make that archetype once again worth drafting. My play group all thinks that Hullbreacher is awesome, and no one funds the Initiative cards to be “incomprehensible.”
 

vandwedge

Active member
For sure a difficulty with curating vintage cube is that different players want different things. I personally like initiative, but don't recommend it at the moment since white aggro is already overpowered and doesn't need a boost.

(I also disagree that cube is "in shambles" right now... I think it's the best it's been since Cheon left! Love this format, always have, and likely always will.)

& PS I wholeheartedly agree that Daybreak should not blindly include any of the above suggestions, including my own. I think we are all providing them only as things to consider.
 

ManaDrainThis

MTGO Regular
There are some cards out there that are similar to existing cards in mtgo’s vintage cube, but are stronger. I think these cards should definitely be swapped in. Here are a few proposed changes:

Miscalculation > Lose Focus
Aurelia, the Warleader > Combat Celebrant (along with Winota Joiner of Forces)
Deranged Hermit > Deep Forest Hermit
Oblivion Ring > Leyline Binding
Rolling Earthquake > Light up the Night
Eladamri’s Call > Worldly Tutor
Timeless Lotus > Gilded Lotus
Consider > Portent or Impulse

*Winter Orb > Stasis

I put an asterisk on that last one, because I think some people might disagree with me on that. Winter Orb is a great combo with Urza, but in all other situations I’d prefer Stasis for my control decks.
 

vandwedge

Active member
I'm liking Miscalculation and Rolling Earthquake as they are, but the rest of your list I'm on board with. Cube could definitely use 1 or 2 domain cards, especially with the triomes running around. Some other random additions I thought of:
  • Polymorph
  • Tarmogoyf (it was weak the last time around, but the metagame has shifted and I think it would be strong now)
  • Guided Passage
  • Copy Artifact
  • Mana Confluence
  • Necropotence (possibly underpowered, but maybe worth another try?)
  • Preacher
  • Tetsuo Umezawa
  • Royal Assassin
  • Recycle (for elf decks, or maybe Null Profusion for storm is better?)
  • Scroll Rack
I'm also rethinking some of my suggested cuts. I still believe every card I listed is underpowered, but many are beloved, and therefore should probably stay. The skilled players pass them and increase their winrate, while the less skilled players take them and have fun, so everybody wins. The bigger issue is bad cards that nobody likes, as they just take up space and irritate people. (In other words, Life from the Loam should stay but Field of the Dead is out.)
 

Mikey

Member
It would be tragic for the cube if some of this advice was followed. Yes it desperately needs a change, but no adding Time Vault does not improve the environment. An unbeatable two-card combo where each half does nothing alone is not engaging game design. Similarly Hullbreacher is the antithesis of fun. Initiative is one of the worst mechanics introduced to two-player Magic, causing inescapable steamrolls and being generally incomprehensible due to the huge volume of words and choices. The small number of powerful cards with this mechanic would also further imbalance the cube.

I hope that you (Daybreak) reflect on what people request instead of simply doing what they want and letting the squeaky wheel get the grease. Vintage cube is in shambles but don't let the vultures encourage you to accelerate its decay.

I go out of my way to play at least ten of the cards on vandwedge's cut list, and while I agree some of the new ideas in the suggestions list could be fun most of them were already cut or never included in the cube because they would obviously join the first list of ignorable cards immediately. Maybe Drop of Honey could be fun, but most of the cards are situational, weak, and/or reactive and don't compete with the Horizons tribal that dominates Magic right now.
the degenerate stuff is the stuff that draws people to vintage cube in the first place. I can't imagine people queueing up for vintage cube are doing so not expecting to get smokestack locked out or get lotus breached
it's part of the fun, let people assemble vault key in 40 card decks
 

fabiorlopes

Active member
I like the first list of cards that should leave. (Of cource, daybreak have the data so they can double check).

I disagree with Progenitus (Love to grab it in green decks), also Soulfire Grandmaster can combo for infinite turns, that is cool. Pack rat is algo a fun alternative way to play.

I dont know if it would work, but maybe adding Karn the great creator would be fun, getting artifacts from your sideboard (similar to mono green in pioneer)
 

JuBungus

New member
Easy fix: remove all MH2 cards and then re-balance from there ?. (Half-joke, I am sick to death of the god damn evoke losers and Ragavan)

I agree with maybe half of OP's list of cards to cut, though a fair few of them are new cards that are clearly only in there for experimentation. Also, dear brother OP, Pack Rat, Yorion, the man lands, and field of the dead are all hella good :< Also Academy Ruins is a great enabler for Mindslaver win-con in big dumb artifacts control, and happy funtimes if you manage to get Recurring Nightmare/Birthing Pod + Wurmcoil in UB.

I agree that Cataclysm would be a fun add over the dupe of armageddon, and I also miss Valki and Kitesail. Hullbreacher isn't necessary now that we have new Sheoldred, I don't like the idea of having the wheel + card draw restriction shenanigans readily available in just U, make people play 2-color for it (especially when the 2-color is an under-represented pairing).

Please for the love of god no vault-key, and double please for the love of triple god no initiative cards. Initiative is like all the worst aspects of Monarch, Energy, Day/Night, and Dungeon all rolled into one crap-sandwich.
 

ManaDrainThis

MTGO Regular
Vintage cube returns in less than 6 weeks, so let’s revive this thread! This is the first iteration of cube where Daybreak will be stewarding the changelist, so let’s give them our Top 5 cards we’d like to see added to the cube!

My Top 5:

1) Hullbreacher
2) Time Vault
3) White Plume Adventurer
4) Lotus Cobra
5) Fiery Confluence

Honorable Mention: Chaos Defiler (not coded into MTGO yet, but hopefully it will be for the next go around…this card is sweet!)
 
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