Backlog Life and Limb and Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth

[EI_Verdugo]

If Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth is played after Life and Limb, more often than not, the lands that become forest don't turn into creatures.

 

[Neo001992]

This is not a bug, this is a case of timestamps. If Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth is played after Life and Limb then only future lands that are naturally forests will get turned into 1/1s while lands that are turned into forests because of Yavimaya will not be turned into 1/1s. If Life and Limb is played after Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth, then all lands will become 1/1s.

Life and Limb played:

https://imgur.com/a/zBUsLSE

Yavimaya played after:

https://imgur.com/a/RapBice

Displacer Kitten blinks Life and Limb giving it a newer timestamp.

https://imgur.com/a/1xeXkwL

Event#268497408 Game#877222152

 

[Neo001992]

Can someone explain why this got labeled as a bug? This looks like a case of layers and timestamps acting as they should.

 

[Torbin]

Cradle of Growth, we had already caught it in the past as a bug and had it backlogged

 

[EI_Verdugo]

Since Life and Limb's effect is constant, shouldn't it also apply to any lands turned into forest by Yavimaya? In at least 3 games; I had gotten indications that it is a bug because MTGO will suddenly apply Life and Limb's effect to lands it had ignored for this effect, after the opponent plays a random card that shouldn't affect the interaction of these 2 cards. I do not remember what the cards were though, as those games happened last year. I though this issue would have been resolved by now, but it hasn't.

 

[Neo001992]

I neglected to consider that this may be a dependency, and in looking up the full text of the rules I believe my initial take was wrong since a dependency overrides timestamps. Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth should always be applied first regardless of timestamps because Life and Limb's effect is dependent on Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth, which means that Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth is indeed bugged here.

613. Interaction of Continuous Effects

• 613.1.The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:
  • 613.1a Layer 1: Rules and effects that modify copiable values are applied.
  • 613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
  • 613.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 612, “Text-Changing Effects.”
  • 613.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
  • 613.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
  • 613.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding effects, keyword counters, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability are applied.
  • 613.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.

• 613.3. Within layers 2–6, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first (see rule 604.3), then all other effects in timestamp order (see rule 613.7). Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer. (See rule 613.8.)
• 613.7. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is usually done using a timestamp system. An effect with an earlier timestamp is applied before an effect with a later timestamp.
• 613.8.Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system.
  • 613.8a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
  • 613.8b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.
  • 613.8c After each effect is applied, the order of remaining effects is reevaluated and may change if an effect that has not yet been applied becomes dependent on or independent of one or more other effects that have not yet been applied.