Not A Bug Broken interactions with Kudo, Trickster's Elk, and Guardian of the forgotten

Scagnetti

New member
There seemed to be two bugs in this game in rapid succession, so I am guessing they are connected and should be posted as a single thread.
First, Kudo has the static ability to make other creatures have base power/toughness 2/2 and become bears, and Trickster's Elk is supposed to remove all abilities (including static abilities) and make the creature base power/toughness 3/3.

So when I put Trickster's Elk on Kudo, he should become a 3/3 and lose his ability, but instead he becomes a 3/3 and keeps his ability (pic here). If you hover over the creature, it shows the ability greyed out, but it still affects the field. That's bug #1.

Then bug #2 is when this Kudo dies while enchanted by Trickster's Elk, it is modified, but it does not manifest the top card of my library while Guardian of the Forgotten is out. This might indicate that Kudo is not considered enchanted, which might be why his ability keeps working, even though his power/toughness still changes to 3/3.

Game ID 881567724, Event ID 269591438
 
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Neo001992

Well-known member
For your second bug there is already a thread on Guardian of the Forgotten not behaving correctly.

When tested Kudo, King Among Bears when enchanted with a bestowed Trickster's Elk is still setting the P/T of other creatures to being 2/2, and this is not correct behavior.

Here are the layers for reference.
  • 613.1.The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:
    • 613.1a Layer 1: Rules and effects that modify copiable values are applied.
    • 613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
    • 613.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 612, “Text-Changing Effects.”
    • 613.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
    • 613.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
    • 613.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding effects, keyword counters, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability are applied.
    • 613.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.
Kudo, King Among Bears ability has a type changing component, and a P/T setting ability that apply in Layers 4 and 7. Trickster's Elk, when bestowed, has an ability removing effect, a color changing effect, a type changing effect, and a P/T setting ability that apply in Layers 4, 5, 6, and 7. Layers are always applied in order with the note that some layers have sublayers where timestamps can start to matter.

So when you have a Kudo, King Among Bears with a bestowed Trickster's Elk here is what should happen.
1) Kudo's type changing effect is applied turning all other creatures into Bears in addition to their other types.
2) Trickster's Elk turns Kudo into an Elk.
3) Trickster's Elk turns Kudo Green with it's color changing ability.
4) Trickster's Elk removes Kudo's ability with it's ability removing effect.
5) Kudo's P/T setting ability was removed in layer 6, and is no longer there to be applied in layer 7.
6) Trickster's Elk sets Kudo's P/T to being a 3/3 with it's P/T setting ability.

The end result of this interaction is that Kudo will still turn every other creature into a Bear as an additional type, but will not apply it's P/T setting ability because the bestowed Trickster's Elk removes that ability before it could be applied. This interaction is very similar to how a Dryad of the Ilysian Grove still gives it's controllers lands all land types even with a Dress Down is in play since the type changing ability is applied in layer 4 before all of Dryad's abilities are removed in layer 6 by Dress Down.


Event#269632059 Game#881728418
 
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Torbin

Staff member
Community Team
Tag applied: Not A Bug

We confirm that the interaction of Guardian of the Forgotten with Bestow enchant abilities is an issue.

But as for the interaction of Kudo, King Among Bears, or other Continuous Effects cards such as Ashaya, Soul of the Wild or Graaz, Unstoppable Juggernaut, with spells that removes all abilities such as with the Bestow ability of Trickster's Elk or even Dress Down, this is intended by the rules. Continuous Effects are placed on an underlying "Global Effects Layered Stack" during a match, and they remains in effect as long as the card with the Continuous Effects remains in play. Even if it lost all it's abilities, the Continuous Effects is and remains in effect.

I would refer you to the rules on Continuous Effects in the Comprehensive Rule book for more information, for Continuous Effects are very nuanced in the way they stack and interact with each other.

613. Interaction of Continuous Effects

613.6. If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones. If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process.
 

Neo001992

Well-known member
Tag applied: Not A Bug

We confirm that the interaction of Guardian of the Forgotten with Bestow enchant abilities is an issue.

But as for the interaction of Kudo, King Among Bears, or other Continuous Effects cards such as Ashaya, Soul of the Wild or Graaz, Unstoppable Juggernaut, with spells that removes all abilities such as with the Bestow ability of Trickster's Elk or even Dress Down, this is intended by the rules. Continuous Effects are placed on an underlying "Global Effects Layered Stack" during a match, and they remains in effect as long as the card with the Continuous Effects remains in play. Even if it lost all it's abilities, the Continuous Effects is and remains in effect.

I would refer you to the rules on Continuous Effects in the Comprehensive Rule book for more information, for Continuous Effects are very nuanced in the way they stack and interact with each other.

613. Interaction of Continuous Effects

613.6. If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones. If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process.
Torbin is correct here after looking into it more, my explanation would have been correct if Kudo's ability was worded as separate individual abilities, but because it's all in one ability 613.6 does apply.
 
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